James McAnally and Anita Fields

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The views and opinions expressed by speakers and presenters in connection with Art Restart are their own, and not an endorsement by the Thomas S. Kenan Institute for the Arts and the UNC School of the Arts. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

In November of 2024, Counterpublic (opens in new tab), a St. Louis-based arts and civics organization, and the Osage Nation (opens in new tab) made a historic announcement. After three years of negotiations, the entirety of historic Sugarloaf Mound, the oldest human-made structure within the City of St. Louis, was being rematriated to the Osage Nation, whose ancestors built this and other mounds in the region.

Counterpublic was not only a crucial negotiator in the process. In 2023, the organization, which every three years produces a three-month-long city-wide arts festival, commissioned new work to be displayed at a site near Sugarloaf Mound in order for the city to engage with the site’s cultural and historic significance. One of the artists Counterpublic commissioned was noted Oklahoma-based clay and textile artist Anita Fields, who is herself Osage.

“Art Restart” reached out to James McAnally, Counterpublic’s Executive and Artistic Director, and Anita Fields to learn more about why and how an arts organization as well as a range of artists were crucial to this successful Land Back effort. After all, what’s a more striking example of arts and artists shaking up the status quo in their communities than this historic example of an arts-centered process of rematriation? 

In this interview, James and Anita share how art played a pivotal role in the historic rematriation of Sugarloaf Mound, from fostering trust and dialogue to reimagining the site’s future. They reflect on the power of creative practice in Land Back efforts and offer insights for those looking to merge artistic vision with meaningful action.

Pier Carlo Talenti: James, why was Counterpublic, which is an arts and civics organization, well-positioned to undertake this historic negotiation? I wonder if you can give me a thumbnail of when Counterpublic got involved and whether you’d had any prior experience with this sort of Land Back action.

James McAnally: The first thing I would say is that when Lee Broughton and I founded Counterpublic as an organization in 2021, we intentionally built this kind of systems-change work into our structure, our mission. So entering the 2023 exhibition, the rematriation efforts at Sugarloaf was top of our mind as one of our primary priorities as an organization. 

But I would reframe it. Entering the work, for me, was really about understanding the histories of St. Louis’ legacy of erasure, the displacement of Native peoples and the destruction of hundreds of mounds in the city and this immediate region. I think understanding the unique nature of Sugarloaf as the last intact mound within the city was a moral obligation, is how I would frame it for myself. It was about understanding this precarious nature and the work that Osage Nation had already begun in purchasing a portion of the mound in 2009 so that it felt like the exhibition was the tool or the instrument with which we could take action. It was really just that understanding of the necessity to do something and the opportunity or invitation to do something. 

I think I first began writing about the mound in an essay in 2017, 2018 for Art in America, so it’s been on my mind for many years. Even before that, it was something I was aware of. I would pass by weekly; it’s near where I have lived and worked in St. Louis for many years. It was something that was always a question, like, “What is the next step here?” 

I don’t know the exact moment where it kind of clarified for me, but I will say at some point, it switched from “What will happen with this?” to “What could I do to support this?” I think that led to it being a priority for Counterpublic and really an expansion of what we felt like as an arts organization. It is a bit unorthodox a project to undertake, but we felt like it was an expansion of what we felt like the exhibition could do and what we as an arts organization could take on as really a core part of our mission.

Pier Carlo: Could you describe the exhibition?

James: For our 2023 exhibition, we were really looking at the histories of St. Louis through a lens of repair. St. Louis has been this really central place in American history for all the wrong reasons in a lot of ways. As the gateway to the West, it was really a site in which the settlement of the West and the displacement of Native peoples were really centered here in a particular way. 

With the 2023 exhibition, we were looking at those histories but specifically through a lens of repair, rematriation, reparations and what could be done now to undo some of those legacies and set up a different future. In the exhibition of 2023, there were 37 artist commissions on 40 different sites, but Sugarloaf was one of three primary hubs where we were thinking, “This is something that we are committing to take more long-term generational action with.”

Pier Carlo: Anita, is that when you got involved with making art on the site? Were you part of that exhibit?

Anita Fields: Yes, I was asked by Counterpublic and Risa Puleo, one of the curators, to create work for that site. I asked my youngest son [Nokosee Fields (opens in new tab)], who is a musician, to create sound for that so that we could collaborate on this project together. I entered into it very, very carefully because of the way that Sugarloaf Mound is considered within the Osage Nation and its meaning for us. It wasn’t something that I took very lightly, and I know that Counterpublic and Risa had done the same, entered into it carefully and did everything they needed to do to proceed with their work, which included talking with the Osage Nation and Dr. Andrea Hunter (opens in new tab) and her Preservation Office. I took those steps also just to make sure that people understood from my community what it is I would be doing there.

Pier Carlo: Was it your first time visiting the site?

Anita: It was not. Dr. Hunter’s office, the Cultural Preservation Office of the Osage Nation, takes trips to culturally significant and historic sites that are important to us as Osage people, and I had been to that site with one of those trips, and I had been to Cahokia (opens in new tab) years before. As our history in Missouri is becoming clearer and clearer to us through Dr. Hunter’s efforts, Sugarloaf Mound was on my list when I was in that area of places that I wanted to visit. So I had been there a couple of times previously.

Pier Carlo: You talked about entering this carefully. Could you describe exactly that meant for you and how you and your son decided to bring your art to the Mound? What did you want it to achieve or honor?

Anita: Well, I wanted it to honor our ancestors who occupied that site. I also wanted the visitors who were coming to Counterpublic and the community of St. Louis to understand in a clearer way what happens to people when they’re displaced, what happens to a tribe when they’re moved. We don’t just disappear into nothingness. We have a thriving, beautiful culture here in Oklahoma in the current reservation that we have today. This is how we made our way down from St. Louis, through a series of treaties. I wanted them to understand that this kind of displacement causes extreme trauma for people, but within all of that, I wanted to speak to the idea of hope because we are a very alive culture.

My son and I met quite a few times, and we worked together for a while and decided upon these wooden platforms that are used in our community. They are not connected to ceremony; they’re not sacred in any way. They are wooden platforms that are found at camps during our dances. If you’re going to enter into a ceremony or go to a home for a dinner, you would find these platforms where people would sit and visit. They’re kind of low-lying platforms, and they can be four by four, six by six. They’re different sizes.

I have a beautiful memory of them when I was a kid. I would go around with my grandmother quite a bit to different social functions and ceremonies, and I would remember elders taking a Pendleton blanket, putting it down and sitting on it. Usually these were found under trees, and I’d just have this beautiful thought of them. They would be laughing and teasing each other and having a smoke, and maybe they’ve got a cold drink with them and visiting, just enjoying each other’s company. This is how I thought about what I wanted to portray there, the kind of meaning that I wanted to have with that. 

We were asked to create 40 of those, and then they were decorated on the top with Osage ribbon-work designs. These designs are also indicative of and symbolize our worldview, which is especially felt there at Sugarloaf Mound, which is our relationship to the earth and sky and water.

Pier Carlo: Was there a soundscape as well?

Anita: There was a soundscape. One thing that I was very excited about was that my son chose to use the voice of our relative, our aunt Lottie Shunkamolah, who was instrumental in keeping our language alive. She was one of the handful of people, probably starting in the ’60s — and then her son became a professor at Central State University here in Oklahoma — who revitalized the language. They created tapes and they had lessons and a workbook, and my son found that in my office. He said, “Can I use this?” and I said, “Sure.” So we were able to have Aunt Lottie’s voice, which I felt was really instrumental so that people could understand that our language has been revitalized, that our language is still with us. 

This is part of that effort that I talked about previously of helping people to understand that we are a continuum of the events and the kind of teachings and values that we thought of when we were originally at Sugarloaf Mound.

Pier Carlo: Had you and your son collaborated in an art piece before?

Anita: We did. During COVID, we collaborated on a piece that was a community piece.

Pier Carlo: Nice. I don’t know that many mothers and sons who could work for a long time together, so congratulations. That’s great. I love hearing that.

Anita: [She laughs.] I hear that quite a bit, actually. People kind of shake their head.

Pier Carlo: That’s great.

Anita: It was really beautiful, though.

Pier Carlo: Oh, I bet. It’s really familial, including your aunt’s voice. I wish I could have experienced it. Speaking of experiencing it, both of you must have watched people experiencing the installation. Could you talk about what it felt like? What were some of the highlights of seeing this site activated through this piece of art?

Anita: Do you want to go, James?

James: Yes, I’m curious to hear your answer there. From my vantage point, seeing the work change through the seasons, seeing it over the course of three months, as I would be there multiple days every week, it struck me that the kind of vision that Anita described before was so clearly evident for people, that invitation to be in a space to listen. The site is right along the Mississippi River — it’s up on the bluffs — and being there, it offered an invitation to a site that is such that people — Osage visitors, other Native visitors as well as others — don’t know how to be there entirely. There are private homes still on top of the mound. There is this kind of awareness that you’re entering a very culturally significant site.

What happened with Anita and Nokosee’s artwork is that it gave an invitation to just sit and listen and observe and pay attention to where you are and think about who else has been there and think about what is being left behind as well. In my estimation, it’s honestly one of the most successful public artworks that I’ve ever experienced, regardless of my having been involved in any way, because it did that work of invitation and grounding for people that I have rarely experienced.

Pier Carlo: Anita, can you describe a favorite moment or a feeling?

Anita: Sure. Well, first of all, thank you, James. That’s very, very, very good to hear. I feel like you saying that helps me to know that our efforts were successful. 

I went there three or four times during different ... . One time it was really hot; one time it was kind of cool. I think when we first arrived at the very beginning at the opening of Counterpublic, there was a tornado that evening, and so yes, we watched the elements pass by. And I was there when there were a few visitors during the opening. I was there when a group of Native curators, artists and scholars came for some events at the Pulitzer, and we went out there all together. It felt very emotional because most of these people I have known quite well for quite some time in my career, and so that was an emotional moment for me.

Unfortunately, I was not able to go to the closing ceremony due to COVID. My daughter has a large-scale puppet theater, and they performed there during the closing ceremonies for Counterpublic. My understanding was that it was quite powerful. 

For me, the most emotionally engaging moments were when I would see people sitting there quietly, observing nature and also just enjoying each other’s company. Of course, it was most engaging when I was able to see a group of Osage people sitting there. It was very touching. I was glad I got to go up there several times to see it in different types of weather and different settings and with different groups of people visiting it.

Pier Carlo: This is a question for both of you. What were some hidden landmines in this process that you either consciously or unconsciously avoided? What were the biggest challenges? And what were the biggest surprises?

James: This has been a many-years-in-the-making process at this point towards the rematriation. I now understand that some of our initial inclinations to what may have gotten us to take action faster were the wrong impulses. I think that some of it is being patient with a process and understanding the many different levers we were involved in. 

There are private homeowners in the mounds, so when we were talking about rematriation, there are different ways that that can happen with a Land Back effort. It can be voluntary, in which there’s a choice from the property owner to give the land back. There could be governmental or public intervention where the people occupying the homes would have to leave. 

Pier Carlo: An eminent-domain situation.

James: Eminent domain, something like that, in which actions that were taken. And everything in between. 

There was an initial interest in doing something more like a public process because we felt there was a groundswell of support from St. Louisans toward returning the Mound to the Osage Nation’s sovereignty. But equally there is, I think, in St. Louis present day very little public awareness around the sort of legacies and the ongoing nature of the Osage Nation, so when we were talking with Dr. Hunter and her team, I remember very clearly them saying, “We don’t want this to be a public process. We don’t want it to be interpreted as a tribal nation coming in and taking anyone’s land. That is the worst-case scenario.” 

So some of those things around how much to talk about it publicly or whether to create public petitions to get people involved in the process were actually not possible and not of interest. They were the wrong type of strategy. What it meant is that it had to be a one-on-one relationship with the property owners to get them to a point where they could not only feel like it was the right thing to sell or transfer their home but that they would also take that step and actually do something. That ultimately was, I would say, two thirds of the time, waiting on that moment in which the slow stewardship of those relationships led to that action. 

We’re now a couple months past the point where we’ve announced that Joan Heckenberg, the woman who grew up on the Mound, has signed a transfer agreement. She had always said that she believed it the right thing to do, but there was a gap between, let’s say, that belief in taking a step and actually doing something. So she took action. 

Subsequently as we were preparing to announce that, the City of St. Louis, the Mayor and the Board of Aldermen also committed to publicly supporting the sovereignty of the Mound and the Osage Nation’s plan for Sugarloaf Mound for the first time in the city’s history. Those things came together where the final property owners, the Kappa Psi fraternity, also agreed to sell and vacate. We’re still working off the details, but it will likely take place by the end of this school year. There were landmines throughout, but it was really trusting that individuals would decide to take action.

Anita: But then we bring in the element of art. We often don’t think of art as having the same kind of power as all of the ways of going about this, as James was also talking about, public hearings and this kind of thing. But art is so powerful, just like that site is so powerful that we don’t know what we’re entering into many times. When I don’t quite understand everything about what it is I’m going to create for something, I believe in the power of art, and I know that it’s going to show me what to do. I know that if I begin and I just stay on this road, that it will reveal itself to me. And I feel like this is the process; this is what happened. Because art is a very safe way of entering into something that is very difficult to talk about many times, I feel like this was instrumental in helping all of these entities into coming into a decision that would be beneficial for everybody.

Because art is a very safe way of entering into something that is very difficult to talk about many times, I feel like this was instrumental in helping all of these entities into coming into a decision that would be beneficial for everybody.

Pier Carlo: Well, you just answered my next question, which was, “Why is art instrumental to this kind of action?” It lets you speak about what is difficult to speak about. I guess it also facilitates those communications, that trust that James was talking about, right?

James: I think it’s also just futuring work and imaginative work. Going back to Anita and Nokosee’s installation at the site specifically, it did create this connection back to listen and feel the ancestors who had built and occupied that space, but also it was a very present, visceral experience. I kept using the word invitation. I remember, Anita, you speaking about it like it was an image. Those platforms, you visualized them and were like, “That is what I need to make for this site,” and you built that. That moment of creation and imagination and visualizing it, I think, also created other people being able to imagine a different future for the site too. I think that that’s very specifically part of the creative process.

Anita: Mm-hmm.

Pier Carlo: What advice would you have for anyone around the globe who’s listening to this and who is involved or thinking of getting involved in a Land Back action, specifically about incorporating art and artists in the process?

James: I can say that for one, it’s just an invitation to action, specifically for arts organizations and exhibitions that incorporate Native artists or talk about themes of Land Back or rematriation or sovereignty. Alongside that, part of our aim with Counterpublic was connecting, let’s say, symbolic and cultural conversation to tangible action. As museums and universities and galleries speak about these issues, they can go further, whether that is Land Back, whether that is direct support of Native artists and tribal nations and other communities, going beyond the initial safer thing of the exhibition. 

I think we can always take action, and I think that that’s the lesson: Show up and see what is needed and what can be done and start there. Assume that you can do something as opposed to feeling powerless to act.

Pier Carlo: Anita?

Anita: Yeah, show up is a great word. And be ready to work together, be open to everybody’s ideas. I think if you’re looking to work with Native communities and Native artists, think about somebody who is connected to their community and who is also going to consider everybody else’s voices within their community, not just your own. Because this doesn’t singularly belong to me; it belongs to everyone from home. 

I can speak from personal experience that on a cold spring day last year, Dr. Hunter had another group go to that site. There were many people who had never been there, and so they were quite overwhelmed to be there. The work is so significant and important that yes, you need to show up with your best thoughts and your best intentions.

Pier Carlo: What is next on your artistic or creative plates? 

Anita: I’m preparing to go to San Antonio in Texas to Artpace for a residency where I will be creating a large-scale installation based on Osage worldview, like I spoke of earlier. It will be a transparent house that will hang from the ceiling and is inclusive of those kinds of things that I was talking about and based on personal memory of the older people that I grew up with when Osage language was their first language.

Pier Carlo: James, what about you and your own artmaking?

James: I think for me, the maybe primary creative activity I have and I’m interested in is really imaginatively thinking about the forms of our institutions. Other people have described it as an institutional practice. I have a tendency to make and remake the context for other creative practices. 

What’s really resonated with me is I’ve just been thinking about this question of, “What do exhibitions do? What can they make happen in the world?” I think this has been one of those tangible moments that we entered with clear intention of what we wanted to do, but it has gone so much farther than I ever expected. It’s really shaping how I think about making exhibitions, making organizations capable of carrying this kind of work, because I really do think that’s the work of the moment. It’s the work of the future and is the most creatively interesting thing in my current practice.